Before I wrote this column I had already started collecting information on TDP. It’s still a decent starting place for learning more. Check out http://www.kantor.com/useful/thermo.shtml.
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Follow-Ups
A few people have written to be asking the same (or a similar question) regarding the efficiency of the TDP process.
Specifically: How much energy is used to power it? Does it use more energy to process the animal/medical/industrial waste than it gets back in oil? (If so, that would make TDP a terrific waste-disposal system, but not a good energy producer.)
Jason Preiser was the first to question this. He wrote:
(to convert the waste), I recover 85 BTUs worth of energy.
This turns out not to be the case. According to the company, about 15 percent of the fuel that comes out of a TDP plant is used to power the plant itself — the other 85 percent is new energy. So if a TDP plant generated 100,000 BTUs worth of oil, it would only use about 15,000 BTUs to power the process.
According to Changing Worlds’ Terry Adams:
(For you purists, he does point out that “Turkey offal is not really a good fuel so the ’100 Btu’s in’ is only a theoretical value.”)
He also wrote:
A couple of people also questioned TDPs efficiency in terms of the laws of physics — you know, energy cannot be created or destroyed. One was Mark Ellison who wrote, “It takes energy to turn garbage into oil using TDP, and, of course, the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics tells us that the energy content of the oil so obtained will be less than the energy used to create it.”
Create, yes. But the energy in, say, turkey offal is created when the animals eat and drink. It’s stored in their bodies. The energy content of the oil obtained through TDP is less than or equal to the energy used to to create it (e.g., turkey food and water), but greater than the energy used to extract it. That’s what makes it an exciting energy source.
The bottom line: TDP produces more energy from the garbage that’s thrown into the ‘hopper’ than is used to power the process.
The Fray
ANN WELLER says:
RUMOR RECENTLY HEARD – “THERE IS A SWISS VERSION OF TDP BEING STUDIED” – DOES ANYONE KNOW MORE ABOUT THIS? IF SO, ARE THE PATENT HOLDERS MORE INTERESTED IN MUNICIPAL WASTE, ETC? THAN CWT? YOU CAN ANSWER ME AT ABWELLER@PACIFIC.NET
John Schmoller says:
The Carthage, MO, plant was first scheduled to open Jun ’04, then rescheduled to open Sep ’04. Did it open and, if not, when is its current due date to open?
Andrew says:
According to the company, the Carthage plant is up and “fully operational.” But just in case, I put in a note to the press office to get the details.
Michael Thompson says:
Could a city of 50,000(say,Corvallis,OR)build a TDP plant and acheive energy self-sufficiency? What would such an operation cost? What I’m asking is this:can a municipality build a TDP plant large enough to handle all its waste….and produce enough fuel to provide for its energy needs.What a brave new world.Wonder what my city councilers might think of this technology. Guess I’ll ask ‘em
Mike says:
I remember the Discovery article stated that the US government provided a small grant to this project. This struck me as strange since the government is controled by oil companies. I suspect that this process will fail to grow due to direct intervention by the oil companies and/or by being taxed or regulated to death.
Mike C says:
Actualy, another article I read about this indicates that Petrolium companies have a interest in thi. Because the by products of the oil refinery that they can not use can be further refined by the TDP process and maed in to resailable proffit product.
IE. They can turn their trash in to tresure, again.
Dana says:
Good job. My gradfather and my sister and I are going to Missouri to check out the plant. To learn more about it. My grandfather is thinking about starting his own plant.
John G says:
CWT states no additional plants are scheduled to be constructed in the US (or abroad either). Why ?????
Mike says:
This process works and is now proven, The cat is out of the bag and might be in the TDP plant so I think that if to many people know about it and it simple to construct the technology can’t be supressed
Craig says:
This is it. The answer to question, “How do we get out from underneath the oil companies greedy feet?” I read the initial article in Discover and was stunned, hopeful, and worried. Worried that the powers that be would smother this unless they could figure a way to get even richer. Now, 2.5 years later and still no media coverage, record high oil prices, record high oil co. profits. Write to your local newspapers, congressmen, and tell everyone you know to search it out on the web before it’s too late.
grandmaz86@verizon.net says:
Will soon be 86-have taken Discovery for years! Nothing fascinated me more than the possabilities of the depolymerization process. Like everyone else: want to hear where you have gone since then? HURRY!
before I leave this mortal coil
Izzy Sorce says:
Milwaukee,WI has a Milorganite plant that processes human waste into fertilizer for lawn & golf courses but it took a long time to get it”established”. To get this TDP idea out needs push from everyone. If you get an article on it, make copies & spread the idea to anyone (with political clout). “Big Oil” will kill this idea or get on board before anyone else gets the chance. Keep pushing. Great ideas are like babies, they have to be pushed before they are born!
JPG says:
I think this process will work. The only problem is that I keep getting contridictory information on the prices of this oil. Some sources say $15 a barrel, others, $80. We’ll just have to wait and see what happens.
france says:
Hello, im just a kid and I would like to make this TDP machine thing for our science project. Is it possible for me to make it? I would just like to show how useful TDP really is and that my project would work. Although im not really that good at stuff like this… Even if I could just make a demo of this machine. If anyone knows and wants to help me out please answer me…
Dion says:
The potential impact of this technology is gratly under-estimated. According to Changing Worl Technologies’ website, the process can convert septic sludge into sweet crude. Stop and think for a moment about the opportunity for sewage treatment alone, even disregarding the resulting final product.
How many of the populous nations could use this technology as a revolutionary waste treatment solution? India alone could benefit tremendously. No more raw sewage into the Ganges, with the resultant reduction in disease transmission.
Biomedical waste is another thorny problem that this technology completely solves. The temperatures and pressures utterly sterilize any biological material, including the prions (mis-folded proteins) that cause BSE (mad cow disease) through feed-chain contamination. Viral proteins are similarly reduced to their component molecules, eliminating infectious capability.
What if every landfill had one of these plants within a mile or two, converting as much solid waste to oil as possible? How about the sewage treatment plants that currently pump effluent into the ocean, like the one in Los Angeles that makes the water in Santa Monica unusable? There’s a Chevron refinery less than two miles from that plant.
Don’t think that this technology is a cure-all. Do think of it as a massive step in the right direction. Remember, most plastics manufacturing relies on petroleum. The energy source for automobiles still needs to shift to another source, perhaps alcohol or hydrogen. Petroleum is still a major pollutant from cars, but has almost no impact when used in manufacturing.
Oil tankers would not be as necessary, since oil production would be much more localized. No more Exxon Valdez spills! The potential benefits are too numerous to list here!
Dave says:
Basically it seems to be a good idea. As I understand it, it will recycle energy that would go to waste. However, it does not create energy. When you are producing oil from plastics or offal through TDP, you must not forget that to produce the plastics and to raise the chickens energy was necessary. Not just energy from the sun but mainly energy from fossil fuels. Is some of this energy that its being recycled. Because you can
levy blue says:
Yes! The ability to produce Oil from Waste is too important to ignore. The ability has been developed & should be used in all locations Immediately.
Contact Your government to insist that they act Now.
My city, Pensacola, fl has sewage & garbage problems that could use some modern solutions.
All of the USA is in the same situation plus We all have the dangers of our dependance on imported Oil.
Act Now! lhblue
Mark S. says:
Question,
What are the minimum requierments for this process to be usefull to an individual household? And is this possible?.
Steve says:
I too am impressed by this technology and all the problems that it may resolve for us, but after seeing that Warren Buffet is involved in the financing, and that the company who’s behind the present state of the technology is not available for public investment, I suspect a very small and select group of individuals will be making all the money from it, and they may even supress it to some degree so as not to damage any of their other investment interests. Wouldn’t you just know that someone who already has more money than he could possibly spend in 100 lifetimes would position himself to make even more money than he’ll ever need! My God Warren, give it a rest already and let some of the rest of us have a chance to make some money! You can’t take it with you ya know!! Quit being such a money hog and let other investors have a shot at making some of this money for crying out loud! You should be ashamed of yourself!
Greg Urlwin says:
Did Dana or anyone else figure out how to build one of these plants themselves? I want to build one, too. Email me at: barbudaexpress@yahoo.com
Thanks.
Greg.
Randy Scheiner says:
My sister and I just had a squabble over the dirt pile she swept up in the kitchen yesterday. I am bent on annhilating the illusion that there is such a thing as trash. I don’t beleive it anymore. She, on the other hand, is in too much of a hurry (like the rest of our country) and wants things done quickly. She protested my hands in her pile. I thought it a great metaphor of the way our society will have to deal with it. The environmental stweards will have to take the trash and run with it, and deliver it to other stewards who have useful positions and can make use of the “trash”. The way I see trash now is as recyclables, compostables, and fixables. Trash is just an excuse for bad behavior. Granted there are a few things that have no place—like nuclear waste—which is why they should stay on the store shelf, or in the ground.
Bryan says:
I am glad to see that someone other than me is as excited about this process as I was when I received my May ’03 issue of Discover. When I told people about this, thay reacted with the same ho-hum attitude that the Segway received. This is the greatest invention since sliced bread! Yet, people don’t seem to comprehend the impact this will have. It solves a plethora of problems all at once. Environmental, political(oil issues), economical, etc. It provides a possibility of cleaning up waste sites. The possibilities are practically endless. And the most amusing part is the that nay-sayers are nay-saying based on a miscomprehension of the math(the BTU in vs. out issue). I am just glad to see there are people out there who can appreciate the beauty of this new, or rather, re-invented science.